Learning How To Lead Yourself
Nicole Winkler: On today's podcast, we're going to talk about coaching life and leadership with Jill Phillips. Welcome to Lift Your Future, a podcast that teaches you coping skills through stories, methods and proven techniques to improve relationships and outcomes in your personal and professional life. I'm Nicole Winkler, a licensed therapist and executive coach. On this podcast, we'll share relatable life experiences designed to help you grow. I will provide easy, practical ways to develop thoughts, feelings and behaviors to impact your life, both personally and professionally. My goal is simple to help you lift your future. Thank you so much for joining me today on the podcast. I'm so excited to have you.
Jill Phillips: Thank you. I'm excited to be here.
Nicole Winkler: Yes. So, Jill, I met you actually more recently. I met you through a business relationship that we both had have. And we got to talking. And you're a business and life coach and I'm a business and life coach, and we have very similar philosophies about coaching. So I've shared with listeners a little bit about my philosophy. I would love it if you would share a little bit about yours.
Jill Phillips: Yes. And it's been such a pleasure connecting with you. After we had our initial connection, I went to your website and saw that you were intrigued with the human psyche. And I thought, Well, so am I. And that goes along with my coaching philosophy, philosophy, which is looking at an individual in a whole. So I take a holistic approach. I believe that it's really important to see every aspect of someone, to really help them have the transformation or the results that they're looking for. So looking at their, you know, how they are physically and mentally and spiritually and emotionally and even their business. And so I take that integrated approach of life, and business is kind of been my sweet spot.
Nicole Winkler: And I love that and I relate so much to that. Whenever I meet with a new client, they're like, Okay, what's your philosophy? What do you believe? And quite frankly, I believe that your life, your personal life affects your work life and your work life affects your personal life. And you can't really separate those things. We can we can compartmentalize. But that still doesn't mean that subconsciously that's not having an impact on one another.
Jill Phillips: And so absolutely, yeah, I stumbled into that because I started off strictly life coaching, but I was working with entrepreneurs and creatives, visionaries, people in business, and what they were sharing in this area of their life for business was also showing up in the other area. So I was like, Ah, this is all working together.
Nicole Winkler: Yes, absolutely. And so you got started. How long ago did you get started in coaching?
Jill Phillips: Let's see. So really, I've probably been doing an element of coaching for most of my life, but to start off as a business, that was about 2015. So seven, almost eight years going on eight years now. I've really starting a life coaching business which three years later took on a business coaching and now I've integrated the two of them together.
Nicole Winkler: And so wonderful. It's a great fit for you. I know it. So there's something that we had talked about one of the first times that we had met, and I, I thought it was just the way that you put it so eloquent and makes so much sense. I hadn't thought about it that way before, but kind of one of the most basic things about people that we don't even necessarily notice, and that was energy equals M.c squared. And so I would love if you could speak to that a little bit today.
Jill Phillips: Well, let's see if I can pull that back out from our conversation. Yeah, I just think I've always been intrigued with energy and E equals EMC squared. C mean to me means energy that is in motion. And you put those two words together and it's emotions and you know, emotional intelligence is such a buzzword. It has been for a while and it still is. And, you know, it's like but what does that really mean? And it's being in touch with how our energy and our emotions are contagious. We have a contagious energy about us, just like if you're walking past someone in the street or maybe your boss walks in to work, you can just feel the energy in the room. You may not know what that is, but as leaders, it's really important to channel your human energy and, you know, harness your emotions to use them in effective ways, because really it's a ripple effect. And that's what I believe about energy and emotion and emotional intelligence. So that's usually a starting place for people to start. Understanding themselves a little bit better is to understand their energy. Yeah, and I always love to share Nikola Tesla's quote that if you want to know the secrets to things, you want to think in terms. Of energy, frequency and vibration. And the vibration that we're emitting sends out the frequency which is attracting back those things that we do want or that we don't sometimes.
Nicole Winkler: Absolutely. Yes. Yes. And I study emotional intelligence for my dissertation. And so I think we really connected in that way as well, because what is what is emotional intelligence? And yes, it's one being aware of what we're experiencing and what we're feeling in the moment and not necessarily reacting to that and knowing that it isn't necessarily the truth. It's it's how we're feeling, though. And sometimes our feelings are real, but that doesn't mean that they're facts. And so really, when I start out talking about emotions with a client, it's it's really trying to drill that in and saying that a lot of times because it's hard for us to really know that depending on how we were brought up, what we were taught about emotions, what we were also shown about emotions, we typically will follow that path more subconsciously than what we actually are told about emotions. But if you think back, I think back. What did I learn in elementary school about feelings? Mad, sad, glad? You know, I don't even know that we learned about jealousy. I don't know that we learned about anything like that or even any underlying emotions for anger, which are actually what I consider primary emotions for anger, you know, jealousy, embarrassment, envy, shame, guilt, guilt.
Jill Phillips: Yes.
Nicole Winkler: Yes. And how those show up in our everyday interactions with people at work and in our personal lives.
Jill Phillips: Yes. And they just stay stuck in our vibrational frequency that we're often not even aware of and looking at why those things have happened and how they cause us to react in our world today through the thoughts that become stories, a storyline, or that creates an emotion and then creates a behavior, whether it's positive or negative. And then that creates the results that we're getting. And that's what actually, I believe is the hamster wheel that we often get stuck on.
Nicole Winkler: Yes.
Jill Phillips: Yeah.
Nicole Winkler: And so with that, how do you break it? How do you stop that endless, repetitive cycle?
Jill Phillips: Yeah, that's that's a great question. And I think awareness is key, you know, being open to our insight versus agreement where our brains are always looking to agree or disagree, but we've just got to remain open. And, you know, I know you work with a lot of leaders and leadership skills and so do I. And so I believe that the number one trait of a leader is that they're open for growth and for learning. So I think that's where it starts. And then having that heightened level of awareness and you know, I don't know, you know, we've been looking at this together, I guess, is that the trend for coaching and leadership coaching is really on the rise for several reasons, but I think more and more people are catching on to understanding that we all have blind spots and it helps you get there further or faster. It's also a great time for having that additional support. You know, it's right now we're in the midst of a lot of change and how to be more on the offense and defense and be more proactive than reactive. But going back to that question, how do you break it? You know, there's different tools that I know that we both use. And one of my favorite tools to use is the emotional guidance skill. It's noted in the book asking it is given in other places too, but it really helps you identify what you're feeling. As you said, most people are able to be in tune with that. They're happy, glad, sad and mad. And and that's maybe it maybe a few more adjectives in there or I don't feel anything or anything.
Nicole Winkler: So you feel content right now or you feel at peace right now? There's a difference there. Yeah, absolutely.
Jill Phillips: There's a difference. You had to name it to tame it. And if you are not naming it or identifying with what it is, it's going to to persist. And again, it could be positive ways to not all just negative, but the emotional guidance scale helps. You have a name for an emotion where it starts off at the bottom with powerlessness and it works its way up to anger and jealousy and being content and frustrated and then maybe optimistic and hopeful and eager and grateful and clarity and joy and love and appreciation. And so when we're able to figure out the narrative, as you were stating or the story or narrative in our mind, whether it's fact or fictional. And I love your process of looking at. As fact or fiction thoughts that are going through our mind. Then we're able to identify the emotion and retell this story in a different way as we move up the emotional guidance scale.
Nicole Winkler: That is not only more empowering because you're taking control back of your life and of the situation and knowing what you're feeling and how, why you're feeling the way that you are. Maybe if you don't even know why, then you can start to explore why. And so I think it just takes your power back instead of giving it away. Because when we get very emotional, we give our power away, we give ourselves away, we're not in control. And so lowering that intensity, being aware, being open to the possibility of maybe this isn't quite right, maybe I haven't been doing it right this whole time. And something I see kind of initially and I wonder if you see it as well is and I try to educate clients on this as well. When you start to acknowledge some of these emotions, you're not going to necessarily like them and you aren't going to necessarily open have open arms and welcome them to come to you. And so I try to also say you may feel very defensive during this as well, whether that's feedback from yourself or feedback that you're getting from someone else. Because I like to do kind of a 360 as well and talk to other people in their life.
Nicole Winkler: And this is not to hurt you, this is to help you and to help you grow. And you can't grow without awareness and without knowing. It might upset you initially to hear this information. These let's identify what your defense mechanisms are. How do you defend yourself? Do you storm out of the room? Do you avoid do you get aggressive? How do you normally handle getting hearing something about yourself that you don't necessarily aren't ready to hear? And so we try to develop a plan for how to accept feedback and how to even for me, when I say, well, can I tell you something I'm observing right now? And it's like, Yeah, what? And then arms kind of go cross sometimes too. And I'm like, I understand that's your way of protecting yourself. And and that's a really powerful tool to protect yourself. So I didn't know if you had any experience with that as well, but that's something I do see and I try to educate on as well. When we do start talking about emotions.
Jill Phillips: Yes, because they can feel scary whenever you look at them up close and it feels like there's a part of you that is being attacked. And, you know, one of the strategies that you have mentioned before that I really have taken and adapted to is that. Ebs It would be even better if and I sense that both of our clientele or clients, they are high performers and they really are aware people. And so it's, you know, taking the good to great is kind of the niche that I think we're both in and helping people just fine tune some of those things that's going to give them that one extra degree.
Nicole Winkler: So what you're talking about, internal family systems, when I first met you and you shared that, you use that and that you like that, I started incorporating it into my coaching as well. I hadn't really known how to cross over with some of those more therapeutic or psychological theories and perspectives into coaching. I wanted to I was trying to figure out a way if I can do this, how to do it. I want to make sure that I'm ethical on all fronts. I'm not using some something out of the scope of coaching because I really do want it to be my coaching business and not a therapeutic business anymore. I'm still licensed, but I want to make sure that I'm still practicing within the scope of coaching. So you actually really opened my eyes up to the fact that I could still use those skills and those tools that I've learned and I've used with many clients over the years in my coaching practice. So I thank you for that. I appreciate that more than I could ever say, because what ifs teaches us is that there's different parts of us.
Nicole Winkler: So there's a part of me that would like to do that, get up on stage and do that. And then another part of me that doubts I'm capable of doing that and I use it with imposter syndrome. Yes, I found that it works really well with imposter syndrome as well. So a part of you is feeling confident in the job that you're doing, that you're doing a great job and you deserve to be in this role. And another part of you is afraid, very scared. Part of you is afraid that somebody is going to figure it out, that you don't know what you're doing. And so kind of going back to the drawing table of what are the facts here? What's the evidence so far to support both of these parts? And then what are the parts trying to protect you from and kind of getting to the real heart of what's going on. So that's kind of a brief example of how I use IFC. Do you have an example that you can share as well?
Jill Phillips: It's interesting because, you know, talking about the therapeutic world versus coaching and there there definitely is a line there. But what I found is that most clients are talking, most people talk. If you listen, they're talking about their parts and their they'll say, a part of me feels this, the part of me feels that. And if I can share a story of a client experience and that I have a client or I had a client, we're no longer working together, but we did for a period of time. And she is brilliant in what she does. She is a high performer and the line of work that she is in, she really needs to have precision. She's working on people. So if someone's going to be operating or working on me, I would want them to be precise to. And what we discovered together was that she had a part of her that was a perfectionist. And the perfectionist in her really helped her do amazing work. I mean, people go to her because she's known to do great work. And I don't want to go to someone who would only do a job half well done. And so it really serves her in that way. But where it wasn't serving her and it was getting in her way when she would go home and the house would have to be in perfect order before she could even relax and spend time with her, her kids and her family. It was impeding her from relationships because she was hypercritical of herself and of others.
Jill Phillips: And so we just began to get to know this part and understand why it's there, where it even came from. Again, we're just taking that brief glimpse in the in the past or really looking where it is now, how it's affecting her and how we want to move forward in the future. And, you know, it was as she became friends, I would say, with this part, because a lot of people think that this means you have to break up with this part and it's going to be like an identity crisis. And it's nothing like that. It is something just you get to know it's a part of you and you want to embrace it and have compassion for that part and and learn how to manage your part versus it, manage you. And so whenever she was able to have the the conversation with her part and she was able to have self management versus it run her in her life. Now, here's the beautiful part of how she applied this is that over time, she began to have conversations with her part on the way home from work, telling it to sit in the back seat. And she was she's got this now, and we identify who she is at her core, true self, too. So she could let the perfectionist part know who that was. Because really all that was happening, she had it reinforced that behavior and that thought over and over. So it became a neural pathway in her brain that grew. And so our work was to help that atrophy and so she could learn how to have self leadership in that situation.
Jill Phillips: Well, let's see, she had a life situation come up. It was it was pretty traumatic and unexpected. And she just did not know how she was going to go show up for work the next day. And so what she did was she invited that part of her to take the lead and to take over for the day because she really didn't feel like she had it. And then later she was able to process it and work through that. But she just said how helpful this was to where she could still show up at work, but she could also be present and have a more fulfilled life at home. And that's what I often see is with with executives, with leaders there are so focused on their work that they have beliefs even built up. When the work stops, you don't stop working and it becomes a disconnect and they don't feel congruent or aligned and they're not even sure why or where this belief came from. So I just think this is a really fun way to trace this back and give them the tools and empower them with a way to have self leadership and manage their mind and their emotions. And as you know, that takes physical effect, too, because what happens in our mind, in our body and emotions are all connected and it's really beautiful to help people free that part of themselves that bring their whole self up to.
Nicole Winkler: Yes. One of my favorite things is seeing a client when they have an aha moment, you're like, Oh, whoa, I had no idea. How did you know that? Like, I didn't know that we found that out together. That was. Yeah. How cool is that? I didn't know that about you. You figured that out about yourself and and and with ifs, you know, I. I heard you talking about myself or self leadership. And so the belief is that our self is caring, compassionate. It's like six C's dictionary is serious. Yeah. And so really being at peace with that and knowing yourself even more, I think it allows you to get to know yourself so much more, which makes you more calm, more in control, more compassionate for yourself and for other people. And then what I find too is people will come back in and say, I notice somebody else's part and I'm like, Yeah.
Jill Phillips: Which part.
Nicole Winkler: Was it? And then I just understand a little bit more and I'm not as critical of other people when I can really see that that's just a part of them. And it's not the whole person who they are.
Jill Phillips: Absolutely. You know, in this whole theme of leadership and self leadership, it's almost in my opinion, it feels like another buzzword, just like emotional intelligence. But what is it? And really, it's the ability to lead yourself. You have to be able to lead yourself, have a self leadership, self management before you can effectively lead other people, you know. And that's where that energy comes in. If you're not aware of how you're leading yourself, you're by chance leading others and who knows which way that's going. We have good intentions behind that most often, but it's really self empowered. People are self empowered leaders and they take radical responsibility to know themselves on such a deep level. So they're again effectively leading other people. And that leads to, you know, success in numerous ways, you know, more fulfilling lives and relationships. But also it gives you a return on your ROI in your business, too.
Nicole Winkler: Yes.
Jill Phillips: And how are you seeing that leadership or self leadership take effect in with the clients that you work with?
Nicole Winkler: I see more confidence and more more calmness and more confidence and more trust in the team when I don't have to feel like I have to take control of of everyone and everything because that doesn't work anyway. Right. Control is an illusion. We feel like we're in control. But I mean, just like, you know, with my kids, I feel like I'm in control of them. I'm not really in control of them. I'm trying to have them have their own with the my words are getting all jumbled up. I have so many words in my head. I want them to be self driven and self motivated. Well, when I am able to empower a leader or an executive in that role and they know themselves better, they're able to communicate better with their staff, with their employees, with the owner of the company. They're able to really know why they're doing what they're doing and then how they're going to do it comes from that. When I know why I'm doing it, I know how I'm going to do it. And then that also I see that trickles down and to the staff as well. This is what needs to be done. The how is your choice, how you do it is not the same way that I would do it necessarily, but maybe you found a better way to do it. I will show you what I did. I will tell you what I did, but there's just more calmness as well. And I find that the emotions don't spike as high for employees and for that leader. The leader just feels more calm in their role.
Jill Phillips: Yes. And that reminds me of another model that we both use. It's just uncanny the similarities. And I just love this. So, you know, really the secret to, I believe, the secret to success, whether it's in your life or a business or anywhere, it is the the self awareness and self leadership. But what that means is who are we being when we go out in the world and take action into what we're doing? And this model that I'm talking about is the do have model that really is so transformational. But it does take a little bit of time to reverse engineer the way we're used to doing things, which is we're used to seeing what kind of action and action am I going to go take today? What am I going to go do so I can have X, Y and Z and then I'm going to be happy. But we need to decide who we're going to be first and set our intention for the day on who we're going to show up as and who we're going to be doing what we do so we can have the results that we really want to have. And I just think that's again, it takes time. It sounds simple and it is, but it's not easy. And now what are your thoughts on the BJ you have model?
Nicole Winkler: Well, I love it setting an intention for the day, for the meeting, for I actually have put that on the top of all of my notes, all of my client contact notes, all of my meeting notes. Now what is the intention? What is my intention? And I want to make sure to communicate that. So sitting down every morning, what are my intentions for the day? You're setting the tone for your entire day. And that's being. Control of your life as much as we can be being in control of our lives, being control of our emotions. I know I have this coming up. I'm going to mentally prepare for that now. So that way it's not 5 minutes before. And I'm scrambling around and I'm stressed because even good stress is stress. And we don't necessarily think in our most rational mind when we're really stressed. So I absolutely follow that, my love, that model, because we'll be happy when like when we'll never come. When we'll never come. That will come. Well, whatever you said will come. I'll be happy when I get this promotion. I'll be happy when my kids are out of diapers. I'll be happy when this when that will. Then we have all this whole other laundry list of things. I'll be happy when. When we need to really be happy in the moment now or content at the very least with where we are in our life right now, because this is what we're guaranteed is today.
Jill Phillips: Absolutely. Yeah, you nailed it. And it's being more present is what it helps do. It reminds you of that intention. And if we look at that intention, we set out in the morning and check in how how am I doing today with that intention and following through? How did I live that not what did I not do? Even though I think the contrast, if we are aware of that, can be helpful to. But it's catching yourself, living your intention because of course what you focus on expands and grows, but it does help you live a more present life. And kind of what you were alluding to that I heard, too, is, you know, the stress or the worries. It's the fear we have the future, which is anxiety, of course, or looking back at the past and all of our mistakes and what it could have should us when we start shooting on ourselves and saying, Oh, I should have, well, that can lead to the Depression. And now I think we all live on a spectrum which we have healthy and unhealthy levels of all of these emotions and anxieties and fears and all of us on an on a spectrum. But it's when it starts to impede our what we're trying to get from life or our happiness and our well-being. That's when I think it's a time to look and I start identifying what our blind spots are and how we can take time to pause and really do a lot of deep reflection so we can have reminders and refocus on where we are going versus where we have been.
Nicole Winkler: I could not agree more something along those same lines and that reminded me of it is that when we want feedback, we have to be sure that we're ready to hear the feedback and sometimes we're not sure. So I say, Well, take a notebook or ask if it ask for permission, if you can record the feedback. But another really simple tool that I use with people about feedback and knowing those blind spots, because it's like, Well, they're my blind spots, how am I supposed to know them? I say, Well, think of something that three people have told you about yourself that you have dismissed. It's the same thing. But if three people or more have told you the same thing, they're probably right. That's probably an area for you to explore. And that might be a that would be where I would start with a blind spot and then also being open, having a conversation with someone, Hey, I'm doing work on myself. I want to get to know myself a little bit more. What is an area that you think I can improve on? And really listening with an open mind, taking notes saying thank you afterwards, thank you for your feedback. Because I also find that unless we can preface it with why I'm doing this, people aren't going to give the most genuine feedback unless they know that this is a safe space for me to give you this feedback. Because generally we then we have those defense mechanisms that come up and kind of can push people away sometimes. So that's why I have that talk about those blind spots and what that looks like when you're asking for feedback so we can grow. The only way we can grow is when we really challenge ourselves to know the things that other people know that we don't know exactly.
Jill Phillips: Yes, you know, it makes me think about getting the house in order, the analogy of getting our house in order and how are you going to go take care of another house if we don't have our own house in order? Now, you can talk about your your physical house that you live in with the four walls. You can talk about the country, which I'm not going to get into politics or anything, you know, taking care of your own house there, too. But also, what is your house and is taking care of of you putting your oxygen mask on first and making sure you're, you know, doing the self check ins to live your most aligned and congruent life with your thoughts, your words, your actions and your deeds. And now it never looks like perfect harmony, or at least not not all the time. Can you live in that state? But it's having that internal G.P.S., you know, the internal guidance system that says something feels a little off here. Either I feel it. I think it. I tune into my senses. You know, I encourage people just to slow down even even 5 minutes a day to take a clarity break.
Jill Phillips: Clarity power hour, a clarity week. Whatever you can do to create space and just sit and take those few deep breaths to calm down their nervous system. And oh, my gosh, our nervous systems are on overdrive these days with all of the change. And, you know, that's something that I don't think is going to change, is that we're always going to experience change and it seems to be happening at a rapid speed and rate. So I guess what matters really is while we can't control the outside world, we're able to have more inner peace and alignment and can control what happens with inside of us. And that's what I think is taking care of your own house. And when you do that, then you have more energy to give to others to be of a service or a leadership with other people, too. Yes, it's again, it's simple, but it's really not easy. And it's a practice easy. You know, you don't arrive well.
Nicole Winkler: And there's there's times where we have lapses, too, and we fall back into that habit. But along those same lines of the house, sometimes I say, Well, what we need to do is go in and do just a quick remodel. And it might take a little while to do the remodel, but and maybe we're moving some pipes around, maybe we're moving some walls around or knocking a wall down and we have to re drywall or repair. But that's that's in your brain. That's what we need to do for some of these automatic pilot, which is our subconscious mind. And that's just our automatic response to things. Those neurons have to quote Daniel Siegel's work, you know, neurons that fire together, wire together. And so if you've done this over and over and over again, you have a very, very straight line between those neural pathways. It becomes automatic. And so we need to go in and consciously go in and make a different decision or respond a different way, or ask ourself another question and get to know ourselves a little bit deeper. But then those neurons fire together, they'll wire together, and with enough repetition and practice, that will become more of the automatic response instead of what we have been doing. So it's a little remodel is the way I like to look at it. So your house analogy was very good. It's like we're just remodeling this room and sometimes it just needs new furniture and sometimes it needs new paint, but sometimes we have to knock down entire walls and rebuild a little bit. And that's OC, that's OC, that's why you're here. So yeah, we, we have a lot of the same philosophies, I think it comes to, to life and leadership and business and just people in general.
Jill Phillips: Yes.
Nicole Winkler: So I know I told you I would ask you for a book recommendation. I like to ask people for book recommendations when they come on the podcast. What would be a book recommendation you would have for people I know?
Jill Phillips: And I just thought, one, am I just going to be able to share one? No, because I you can.
Nicole Winkler: Have any as you want.
Jill Phillips: There's a part of me that has a problem with buying so many books. And so I've told myself I'm on hold for buying books. And there are just so many great books out there that I could recommend some for, for business or for leadership principles or any of the concepts that we spoke about today. But whenever I think about just recommending one book that makes a huge impact that I think everyone needs to read, it's the Four Agreements by Don Miguel Ruiz. And if everyone could live with an understanding of these agreements and live by them, what a great world it would be. Now, of course, there are there's ancient wisdom and the Bible and the Dow and all kinds of books. And I think that this book, The Four Agreements, simplifies a lot of those a lot of the ancient wisdom that's out there. And it boils it down to, number one, be impeccable with your word. Try to speak as much truth as possible. Don't take anything personally. And when we understand that what other people are, what other people's thoughts or opinions on is just a projection of what's going on with inside of them versus having anything to do with us. We can let ourself off the hook a little bit more and have a little more compassion for them and ourselves.
Jill Phillips: To number four is always do your best. And that's something that I, I hope we can continue to build on this principle as we move forward, especially in the work force, is we can move forward with compassion and some grace, but we can also. A strive for efficiency and to be effective and to always do our best and know that our best is good enough to. So there's a balance there, but always do our best, put our best foot forward. And the other one is don't make assumptions is just don't assume that this is right because it's your experience, because someone else may be having a different experience. So I love this book and I just hope that we can continue to live by these principles as we move forward and the century that we're in and can continue to have more peace and harmony and love and joy and a better lives and better businesses. And we can really all start taking radical responsibility for the energy that we're putting out there. How about you? I want to hear your favorite. I don't know if I've asked you this question. What's your favorite? Give me one. I don't have the favorite.
Nicole Winkler: I, I like I'm such a nerd. So when I read books, especially like self development or self improvement books, I get the audible audible book and then I also buy the book. And when it's being read to me, I guess when I'm listening to it, I highlight and I have my pens and I write in the margins and it helps me retain information better. So gosh, you know, how to win friends and influence people was probably life changing for me years ago, and that's still one I like a lot. I really enjoy the book. Mine Site by Daniel Seagull. It's about our mind map and how we connect to other people's mind maps and kind of he gets into a little bit of his attachment style from how we grew up and how that impacts us in adulthood. And so I just find that really fascinating. I also really love the book Mindset by Carol Dweck, and it talks about a growth mindset and a fixed mindset and and how when we have a fixed mindset, we can't, we can't grow. It's like we give up and that's all that we could do. But a growth mindset is keep trying and keep putting our best foot forward and challenging ourselves to do that. So there's a lot of research that she's done that shows even kids that take a test in elementary school and the kids that just put see down for all the answers versus the kid in their mindset versus the kids that just try and they might even do worse than the kids that just put down C for every answer, but they show up differently in life and how that will impact them, you know, even into junior high in high school and college and how we want to foster that growth mindset. So those are three that I that I think very highly of. But there's there's so many great books.
Jill Phillips: Yes. I also have to mention Caroline Leaf's book Turn On Your Brain or who switched off my brain? Who Switched On My Brain. Those are great books. And I love Mel Robbins has some really good books out right now, too. I really enjoyed her. There's just so many good books out there. And I didn't know you were. You did that, too. I do that, too. I get the audible eye. You do book and I highlight. And even if I listen to Audible, I click on my phone like I take screenshots of the moment so I can go back and listen to that or write that down. Yeah, I do bookmarks.
Nicole Winkler: I do bookmarks and I make a note in there, and even if it's about a client, I'll make a note like so-and-so, you know their name in there. So then when I see them, next time, I'm like, Hey, at this moment in this book, oh, my gosh, that's funny. Well, thank you so very much for being on today. I appreciate you immensely and.
Jill Phillips: I appreciate you. It's always enjoyable and I love our conversations and all the places that they go.
Nicole Winkler: I know. Well, now I have a few more ideas and questions I'll talk to you about after this. And so maybe you could be on again sometime if you're up for it. Thank you so much. You have a wonderful rest. Thank you.
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